Dec 1, 2020
If left untreated, trauma can have a detrimental effect on intimate relationships. In this week's episode, couples therapist, Debra Pilzer, discusses her approach to the treatment of couples. Debra also notes the various ways she can assess whether or not untreated trauma may be the root of discord between partners.
To learn more about Debbie, please visit:
Meet
The Team ~ Center for Intimate Relationships, LLC
(myintimaterelationship.com)
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Transcript:
Alyssa Scolari [00:24]:
Welcome to the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari and we have another awesome episode coming at you today. I have my good friend on with me, Debra Pilzer. Debbie is a couples therapist, and she works for the Center for Intimate Relationships in Haddonfield, New Jersey. And Debbie has a master's degree in mental health counseling from Capella University and is certified in the Gottman method, an evidence-based treatment for treating couples issues. Debbie is also pursuing her Doctor of Marriage and Family therapy degree from North Central university. And one of my favorite things about Debbie is that in her spare time, she is a ballroom dancer, a competitive ballroom dancer at that and kick some serious ass in her competition. So we are going to talk about that. Hello, Debbie, how are you?
Debbie Pilzer [01:30]:
I'm Good, Alyssa. How are you?
Alyssa Scolari [01:32]:
I'm Good. I'm so happy that you were bold enough to come on and talk to me today. There's so much that I want to pick your brain about. You do the thing that I always say I could never do, which is treat couples. And I guess, can you just tell me, like, not why, but like why? Why do you do what you do? Why couples? And this is purely like for the listeners out there. This is my own bias. I think when I was like really fresh in the field, I got thrown into couples work when I had absolutely zero training in it and it really put a bad taste in my mouth for working with couples. Do you want to talk a little bit more about like what you do?
Debbie Pilzer [02:24]:
Yeah. I completely fell into this field by accident. I did some couples therapy when I was interning and I thought to myself, you're a divorced woman. How can you do this? And so I loved it though. I love the interaction between the couple. I had a wonderful internship experience and a wonderful internship supervisor where I was introduced into different types of therapies, kids, couples, adults, addiction, all this stuff. It gave me a really good experience in all different types of therapy. For some reason, loved the couples work. It hit my heart. It hit me in a place where if they would just be able to express what they need and see where it's common, they have connection. I started dabbling in it a little bit and I reached out to Carolyn my supervisor when I was looking for a job after I graduated, but she did not hire LAC's at the time.
And so I went someplace else, worked there for a couple of years, left that job, reached out to her again. And I got my full licensure, my LPC, and she happened to be hiring. And Carolyn is a wonderful supervisor trainer. She took me under her wing. She wanted somebody that didn't have a lot of experience so she could support and help cultivate them. I have weekly supervision to this day with her. She supports my doctoral aspirations. She supports my certification in Gottman. Right now I'm taking a Gestalt couples therapy course as well. So she's very supportive in that and I just feel like as I've grown into this field more, I love it even more.
Alyssa Scolari [04:39]:
Yep. That's the one thing about you that I would say is that, when you talk about the work that you do, much like when I talk about the work that I do, you light up and you could tell that you absolutely love it. Now, Carolyn is the founder of the Center for Intimate Relationships?
Debbie Pilzer [05:00]:
Yeah. Carolyn Aristone is the founder of center for intimate relationships and our practice is growing. We brought on a new clinician in the middle of a pandemic because we had so many cases we are having conversation again about bringing another person on at some point next year, maybe. We're growing and we have a beautiful office in Haddenfield that I can't wait for this whole thing to be over so I can go back in there because I'm working remotely from home as most of us are. She's very knowledgeable in what she does and she's very passionate for the work that we do. I think that overflows into the entire practice and myself as a learning and always learning therapist.
Alyssa Scolari [05:55]:
And you said that you are trained in Gottman?
Debbie Pilzer [05:59]:
I am. I'm level one certified in Gottman.
Alyssa Scolari [06:02]:
Okay. Can you explain to the listeners a little bit about what that is and what that means?
Debbie Pilzer [06:08]:
Yeah. Gottman was founded by John and Julie Gottman. They are a married couple. They're out of Seattle. They have a lab almost big brotherish in Seattle where couples go to their lab as part of their research and they watch couples interact with each other in this apartment. And they do therapy with them while they're at the apartment. I think they're there for like a week or two. And they developed this method as part of years and years and years of research, both as individuals and as a couple. It's almost cognitive behavioral therapyish in that if couples can learn how to communicate and receive each other without fixing, without assuming what the response is going to be based on past pain, if they can just hold each other's emotion, then they can create a better connection. But there's so much pain in relationships that, that takes time. And there's a personal development within each individual in the relationship, as well as relational development. It requires a lot of time, a lot of patients on everybody's part, including my own.
Alyssa Scolari [07:33]:
Yeah. Because you're in it with them. It's a very, very personal job I think to be a couples counselor. I mean, all therapists have a very, very personal job, but being a couples therapist requires I think a different level of diving into people's lives. And so Gottman almost what I'm hearing you say is, it's cognitive behavioral in the sense that it helps people learn how to reframe and separate what's reality versus what's about past pain, past trauma, triggers, what have you.
Debbie Pilzer [08:12]:
Yeah. As part of the assessment for Gottman is very deep. It's a four session assessment where the therapist meets with the couple initially to figure out what the presenting problem is and get to know them. Then the therapist meets with each person individually. And in that individual session, you do a deep dive into their family relationship origin history, how they viewed their parents relationships with each other, how they were treated as children by their parents, how they get along with their siblings. You also do a deep dive into their previous relationships and why they didn't last. What was going on in those previous relationships before they picked the person who is their significant other now. And then the next session is a deep relationship history of the couple from when they met to present day. Getting each of their takes on what attracted them to each other specifically and are those things still pertinent now. Because sometimes what we're attracted to in the beginning is exactly what we're not attracted to now.
Alyssa Scolari [09:25]:
Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating. And you're going on to pursue your doctorate.
Debbie Pilzer [09:36]:
I am.
Alyssa Scolari [09:37]:
So your soon to be Dr. Pilzer.
Debbie Pilzer [09:42]:
I will be Dr. Debbie before I'm 60 years old. I'm 57 now.
Alyssa Scolari [09:47]:
Oh, congratulations. That is so cool. You're so inspiring. What made you want to pursue your doctorate? Is it just your passion for the couples therapy?
Debbie Pilzer [10:03]:
That's part of it. And you brought up earlier, my passion for dancing. I have this idea and it's going to be part of my final project for my degree. And that is, does the infusion of tango lessons in sex therapy shorten the time that couples are in sex therapy.
Alyssa Scolari [10:25]:
Wow.
Debbie Pilzer [10:25]:
So combining my love for dance with what I do for a living and the dance studio I take dance lessons that is on board to help me do this research. I've looked everywhere. This research has never been done. This is new groundbreaking stuff.
Alyssa Scolari [10:46]:
Can engaging in, why specifically tango?
Debbie Pilzer [10:51]:
I'll be honest with you. You'll laugh. Because with tango your crotches are very close to each other.
Alyssa Scolari [10:57]:
Yes. I knew you were going to say that because there's something about the tango and for the listeners out there, if you have never watched anybody tango, you need to watch people tango, because I mean, I would recommend doing it alone because it gets you all hot and heavy because people are glued at the crotch.
Debbie Pilzer [11:17]:
In sex therapy, many times couples come in with sometimes ED, sometimes different libidos, but sometimes it's that they haven't had sex for years. Years. And then the longer that goes on, because they have put other things above their relationship, the more awkward then it is and they want to have a sexual relationship of some kind with each other. So my theory is that dance will help them get past the awkward in a fun way.
Alyssa Scolari [11:49]:
Yes. While bringing in some type of fun sexual energy, because I feel like that is what the tango is about.
Debbie Pilzer [11:59]:
Yeah. And even from a personal standpoint, I have some body image stuff with myself and I used to weigh a lot more than I do now. It was just all kinds of stuff like that. And the dancing has helped me get a little bit more confidence even though I still have a lot of insecurities when I go out on that floor.
Alyssa Scolari [12:24]:
I love it. I know you also light up when you talk about ballroom dancing. And Debbie, I have had the pleasure of seeing Debbie break it down on the dance floor and she's awesome at it. And you can just tell that's your happy place. That's your self-care.
Debbie Pilzer [12:43]:
Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari [12:45]:
How often do you find that histories of trauma can be what's causing a disconnect or problems in a relationship?
Debbie Pilzer [12:59]:
Almost always. If there is a history of trauma that has not been worked through with an individual therapist, it comes into the relationship. Just like any sort of issues that we experience as children or in previous relationships comes into the current relationship at some point. And that's why we do such a deep dive in the beginning because there are times when there is a deep level of unresolved trauma that maybe couples therapy isn't needed right now. Maybe that person needs to work through some deep trauma that they've not worked through yet. And then they can come back to me as a couple after that's worked through a little bit more to have some more stability.
Alyssa Scolari [13:48]:
How do you see that playing out? I know it's a very loaded question to just say, how often does trauma affect couples. But in your practice with what you see, how does that play out in a more concrete and specific way?
Debbie Pilzer [14:07]:
Usually if one partner feels like they're walking in the minefield and they never know how the other partner's going to react and the other partner's reaction is deep or not in alignment with the issue, there's usually something happening. Some sort of trigger that's going on. We have to explore what that trigger is at times and there are times where I get lost in the session too. And that's usually a trigger for me that there's more going on here than is being presented in front of me. I will split the couple up again at times to explore that individually with each of them so that we can make a plan. A plan of action. There are times too, where I will have couples many times be in individual therapy when they're seeing me too. And I consult with therapists with permission, of course, so that we can all help each other, help these people have more sustained relationships and more fulfilled lives.
Alyssa Scolari [15:17]:
Yeah. And it makes me think just the old classic, you can't be happy with somebody else unless you're happy with yourself. I think that, that's basically what you're saying. It's a very simplistic way, but people who haven't worked through trauma have a really hard time functioning in relationships because it can be like walking in a minefield and never knowing how that person's going to react, never knowing when the next explosion is going to be. Or, and this is the other thing that I want to ask you is do you often find that couples come into your office who maybe shouldn't necessarily be together and who found each other and are attracted to each other as a result of trauma?
Debbie Pilzer [16:13]:
I see that very rarely in all honesty. Sometimes once in a while you do have two really good people that aren't good together and it takes a long time for them to kind of figure that out. But I would stay in the years that I've been doing this, which is a little more than three years exclusively for the most part couples work with Carolyn's practice. I've had very few of those types of situations. Most of the time they come to us because they really want the help. They want to stay together.
They want to work through the issues and you can tell pretty early on if one is pulling one in. They don't really want to be there and that sort of thing. But even in those cases, our practice really wants everybody that comes in to leave with something that is positive. Even if maybe it's a trauma situation where we have to put couples therapy on pause, maybe that's the good outcome is recognizing that. And that person goes and gets the help that they need. We really want everybody that we see to get something from a relational development place, as well as our personal development place.
Alyssa Scolari [17:29]:
Yeah. That makes sense. Now, in the work that you do, do you work specifically with one type of issue that couples present with? So is it just that you will see couples who are struggling to have sex or is it just affairs? What specifically do you work with in of couples issues?
Debbie Pilzer [17:51]:
I can more tell you what I specifically don't work with.
Alyssa Scolari [17:54]:
Ah, that would be easier.
Debbie Pilzer [17:57]:
We don't do active addiction. I don't do severe psychosis, severe personality disorder that isn't being monitored by another therapist or managed. I don't do domestic violence is one that we don't do. I'm not trained in domestic violence at all,.but pretty much everything else, sex, affairs, communication, child rearing, empty-nesters that have lost track of their relationship. We even see individuals that are having issues with their own sexual needs or expression. It's not just the couples therapy piece, there's an individual too. And sometimes when the individual comes in, it turns out to be more relational. So I'll ask if their partner would be interested in joining and doing the couples. We do fertility, infertility issues that are impeding on a relationship and those sorts of things. So pretty much anything except for the biggies, I would say.
Alyssa Scolari [19:02]:
And is that a choice of the agency that you work in or is that a personal choice?
Debbie Pilzer [19:09]:
It's a little bit of both. At our practice, our favorite holiday is Valentine's day. We do a lot internally, podcast wise, Facebook live wise on Valentine's day. We're all about love and relationships and the focus being on love in all relationships. Sometimes couples will come in and if it doesn't work out, we do conscious uncoupling with them to help them get through a separation or divorce. But most of our couples come in because they love each other and they really want to work it out. And with Gottman when we do a feedback session where we set goals after the initial assessments, part of the therapist work in that feedback session is not only to give them what we see, that's not working and how we're going to set goals to work on it. But what is working. Part of that session is the positive perspective of what the therapist sees in that relationship that's happening.
Alyssa Scolari [20:10]:
One of the things that you mentioned, can you just explain a little bit about what is conscious uncoupling?
Debbie Pilzer [20:16]:
Sure. That's when you work with a couple who you've been seeing for a little while and they decide that they're going to separate or divorce. We help them work through both individually and relationally how to uncouple without resentment. Get through the anger that may be their feeling about the relationship ending especially if they have kids. Because if they have kids they're stuck together forever. And so they have to be able to communicate they have to be to co-parent and we'll work with couples to help them do that.
Alyssa Scolari [20:53]:
I love this idea that, and I think that a lot of people need to hear this because when people think of couples counseling, I think that they think they're going to go for a few sessions and then everything is going to be all hunky dory. And I don't think that there are many people out there that have a good understanding of what couples therapy is. And that's sometimes, sort of what you were saying earlier, that the positive outcome can sometimes be the ending of the relationship. Not always, but sometimes. Sometimes it looks like going through that conscious uncoupling process. Or sometimes it can look like, one of the things I know about you is you particularly like affair work.
Debbie Pilzer [21:46]:
Yeah, I do.
Alyssa Scolari [21:47]:
So can you talk a little bit about that? What is your draw to that and how do you find hope in that because I also think there's this huge push or idea out there that once a cheater, always a cheater and marriages cannot be repaired after an affair. You're one of the people that's like, nope, don't buy that. It may not work after the affair, but it certainly can. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Debbie Pilzer [22:21]:
Yeah, it certainly can. It may not, but it certainly can. In counseling, they're given a safe space to talk about their feelings about the affair and their feelings about what happened prior to the affair and the triggers. There's a lot of PTSD not just for the betrayed partner, but for the involved partner too. And they have to talk through them and recognize that there's issues on both. Certainly the betrayed partner didn't cause the affair, but relationally we look at where the breakdown was maybe prior to the affair and that they didn't communicate with each other. And that the involved partner didn't communicate to the betrayed partner what was wrong. There's so many layers to a affair work and that takes a lot of patience on everybody's part. A lot of patience.
Alyssa Scolari [23:24]:
Right. Because it's a slow process, it's a trauma.
Debbie Pilzer [23:27]:
It is a trauma.
Alyssa Scolari [23:28]:
An affair is a trauma and it's a very, very slow process. You've seen it work though. And is that part of why you enjoy it because of the hope that can come out of it and like watching people reconnect after having gone through a trauma?
Debbie Pilzer [23:44]:
Yeah. Again, going back to, Carolyn's training with me in the beginning when I joined her practice, I think prior to that, I wasn't even sure if, it was like, how does this work? Seeing it evolve and working through my cases with her help and then doing it on my own, I've had couples recover from affairs. And when they do, it's like the most amazing thing ever. If they don't and they stick with it, they still come out at the end of the day a little bit better than they were when they first came in.
Alyssa Scolari [24:28]:
Yep. Because whether they stick it out in the relationship or not, there's still a recovery and a healing that comes out of it. Do you ever have couples that come in preemptively?
Debbie Pilzer [24:44]:
I love those.
Alyssa Scolari [24:47]:
Okay.
Debbie Pilzer [24:48]:
Yeah. I love those cases.
Alyssa Scolari [24:51]:
Because I always am a fan of like every couple could benefit from couples therapy, whether there are glaring issues in your relationship or whether you are as perfect as friggin Mickey and Minnie mouse, every single couple could benefit from couples therapy.
Debbie Pilzer [25:14]:
Yeah. Couples don't have to be in crisis to come into therapy. My favorite cases are the ones that aren't in crisis that come in because let's face it Alyssa, we're in a pandemic. These couples, many of them are stuck together. Their offices are closed. Their kids are home doing schoolwork and they have so many things going on that might be impeding on them relationally. Now more than ever, preemptive is better with everything that's going on. Especially since we're doing tele-health and they don't have to come into the office, they don't have to get a babysitter. They could put a movie on for their kids for 45 minutes or have their counseling when their kids are in school. There's a little bit more flexibility now with tele-health than there was when they had to get babysitters and that sort of thing.
Alyssa Scolari [26:12]:
Yeah. I can't even imagine being in this pandemic with children. My heart breaks for the couples out there that have little ones. It's just traumatic in itself to have to fulfill a thousand different roles a day and then still have a relationship that is functional at the end of it all.
Debbie Pilzer [26:40]:
Right. Still make time for themselves as individuals and their relationships. How do you prioritize all of this? And that's what we do at our practice. We work with couples to learn how to prioritize, not just their relationship, but themselves as individuals. Like if my cup's not filled, I got nothing to give to anybody else, including my partner.
Alyssa Scolari [27:00]:
Yep. Oh, a thousand percent. That reminds me of what must've been a couple of weeks ago, but David, my husband, with the whole house situation, because we've been looking at houses and something had happened and David was upset. David never gets upset. He is always like just very even keeled. Things roll off his back. He's nice. He's the nice one in the relationship. I'm the absolute lunatic. And he was upset. I remember looking at him, it was just as like now that the second wave of the pandemic is coming, I remember looking at him and being like, holy shit, I can't comfort you. I can't comfort you right now because I have nothing to give. I had worked all day seeing patients who are in a very distraught state. It was the first time that I remember being like, wow, this pandemic, the effect that it has. And we don't have kids. We have dogs and I had nothing to give. God bless Dave, but I was just like, why are you crying? Like I need you to not be crying so that I could cry.
Debbie Pilzer [28:34]:
Yeah. It's tough. It's really, really hard. It's really hard for people in any way. For myself, I'm a single mom, I'm an empty nester. I'm here day in and day out by myself. My only interaction to the outside world is when my sister comes over on Sunday, I see my daughter a couple of times a week and my dance lessons. Thank God for my dance lesson.
Alyssa Scolari [29:03]:
Yes. So now you've been ballroom dancing for how many years?
Debbie Pilzer [29:07]:
Four years.
Alyssa Scolari [29:08]:
How did you discover it?
Debbie Pilzer [29:11]:
That is so funny. My daughter went to college and I didn't know what to do with myself. I was working at a different practice at the time, a lot of hours, getting my hours for my LPC to get my full licensure and just working like crazy. But I had no fun in my life at all. A friend of mine said, you should go on this app called meetup because you can find things to do, like activities. Meet up, it's a social platform with, it's not like for dating, it's just activities. You put what your interests are and different groups pop up and you can decide if you want to go to a meetup, to meet new people. I went to a few for single people, not my cup of tea. And then I got a notification that said that some studio was offering a free ballroom dance class, no partner needed. And I went, all right, I'll give that a try.
I sat in that parking lot shaking for 20 minutes before I actually went into that class because I'm very shy. Believe it or not. I know it doesn't seem that way. But when it comes to meeting new people, I am very introverted. I'm very shy. I don't like big groups of people at all. It takes me a little while to warm up. And I went in and I just had so much fun. Fast forward two years, I went to a different studio because the teacher that I had left where I was and went to a different studio. Then he left there and then I ended up with the teachers I have now. Competing, it's something my sister and I now do together because she's a hair and makeup person. She works at a salon so it's brought us closer. I travel to compete. It's gotten me a little bit out of my shell and I lost 90 pounds. So there you go.
Alyssa Scolari [31:21]:
It's made you healthier and happier in a multitude of ways.
Debbie Pilzer [31:25]:
Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari [31:27]:
And your sister's your glam girl. Right?
Debbie Pilzer [31:29]:
She's my glam girl. Yep.
Alyssa Scolari [31:32]:
I love it.
Debbie Pilzer [31:37]:
The pandemic hit us hard because a lot of the competitions got canceled this year. This was supposed to be my big competition year before I entered the end phase of my doctorate and that didn't happen. But we did get to go to one on Halloween that had been rescheduled from March to Halloween in Baltimore. And it was very safe. We had to wear masks. It was social distancing but we had a really good time and it was just nice to just go compete one time this year.
Alyssa Scolari [32:11]:
Yeah. And that's your outlet? I mean, like I said, even looking at those videos of you dancing from that competition, you're so happy. You're so happy. It's so important for everybody, whether it's ballroom dancing or painting or I don't know, power lifting, whatever it is. It's just so important to find what makes you happy and to be open to exploring new things, even if they don't seem like they're in your comfort zone because you just never know.
Debbie Pilzer [32:45]:
Because that was so not in my comfort zone at all. It was just random. It was completely random. And I've made really good friends that I never would have met. I've traveled to places that I probably wouldn't have traveled to. Two summers ago we went to Savannah for a competition and I never been to Savannah before. My sister and I took a week and made it into a vacation.
Alyssa Scolari [33:11]:
That's so cool. You're getting to see the country on top of it.
Debbie Pilzer [33:15]:
Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari [33:16]:
That's so fun.
Debbie Pilzer [33:18]:
Yeah. I can't wait to get out there again. But you know now, and my dance teachers Jonathan and Jason, they're so wonderful and so lovely. And the studio owner Jean and the other teacher Crystal, they're just so warm and I can have a really bad day and it's almost like my therapy.
Alyssa Scolari [33:36]:
Yeah. It's how you unwind. I always say the majority of healing doesn't happen just in the therapy session. The majority of healing is what happens outside of therapy for therapists and for non therapists alike, it's doing things that bring us comfort and joy that's healing.
Debbie Pilzer [33:59]:
Yeah. Would you mind if I plugged them real quick so if anybody's listening is interested in getting a lesson?
Alyssa Scolari [34:06]:
Yeah. Plug away because they do some damn good work. They are a fine group of people.
Debbie Pilzer [34:12]:
They are. It's the La Pierre ballroom dance studio in Glassboro, New Jersey. They are offering holiday specials and also we're doing a virtual holiday Christmas card showcase in a couple of weeks. All the teachers there, I danced at a couple of different studios and these teachers are just amazing. Comfort and joy and they don't push you to do anything. You don't have to compete. You could just take lessons for fun. They're just really warm and nice, nice people at that dance studio.
Alyssa Scolari [34:51]:
That's awesome. That's awesome. Glassboro, New Jersey. But are they offering virtual dance lessons right now?
Debbie Pilzer [34:58]:
I don't know. Anybody could look them up on Facebook and call. I know they do have a lot of protocols in place. When I go there, I have to wear a mask. I get my temperature checked. The ballroom itself isn't in an L shape. So if they're teaching two students, they're on two different sides of the L and we're not interacting with each other at all. They're doing what they can within the guidelines that the governor has given to hopefully remain open because they did experience that they were shut down for a few months and it impacts all these small businesses.
Alyssa Scolari [35:35]:
Oh yeah. It's so sad. Okay. And if people want to find you or the agency, the Center for Intimate Relationships, they can just go right to the website, right?
Debbie Pilzer [35:50]:
They can. They can go right to the website and you can actually schedule from the website. You look under services and you can see our services. It's www.myintimaterelationship.com. We do individual, couples and we also have a support group that I run and the information for that support group is also on the website for women. That's a support group for women and you can schedule a 15 minute consult with our client care coordinator, Beth, and ask her any questions. And then she will ask you questions, do a thorough screening, and then get you to the therapist that would be the best for what you have going on.
Alyssa Scolari [36:41]:
Awesome. And I will of course link the website in the show notes for when the episode launches. And then I will also put the website information in the Light After Trauma Facebook group page. If you are a part of that, you can go check it out. Thank you for being here today and for letting me grill you a little bit. I appreciate it.
Debbie Pilzer [37:07]:
Anytime. Anytime You want me back, I'd be happy to do it.
Alyssa Scolari [37:11]:
Thank you. Thanks for listening everyone for more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light after Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. And I look forward to talking with you.